In this episode, we are joined by Morgan McKinley, BA, UN to discuss Peaks Recovery’s Curriculum and how it helps people overcome barriers to recovery.
Talking Points Reviewing how a shift in language is beneficial to reducing stigma and shame within the recovery community Considering barriers to recovery for both young and old adults The guests discuss their favorite parts of Peaks Recovery Centers and some of the reasons why they work to help people recover Quotes “When we walk clients through the grief process, they are like, wait I have all these other grief letters I want to write, I want to keep this going because I am feeling all of this relief, and I have this new process to work through some of these losses that I’ve experienced.” – Jason Friesema, MA, LPC, LAC, Chief Clinical Officer Episode Transcripts Episode 49 Transcriptsempathy is knowing your own darkness
without that connection you don’t have
anything what’s the opposite of
addiction just freedom
hey everybody and welcome to another
fantastic episode of finding peaks here
today we got our chief clinical officer
and my co-host jason friesma also
licensed professional counselor
and to my left here we have one of our
amazing primary therapist morgan
mckinley licensed addiction counselor
welcome to the show
um where i bring on great professionals
but even better humans
so okay that’s my new thing
that’s my new thing man where chris
burns brings on great professionals but
even better humans let’s go all right so
and i also want to say happy easter for
those that celebrate
for those that don’t happy springtime
happy great weather season um yeah so
really excited to get going here in the
show
really looking forward to regrouping
and getting into some really good
conversation today and just really
grateful to have you both here so the
topic for today that i wanted to discuss
and we haven’t discussed it a lot on
finding peaks and it is our brilliant
curriculum um that i absolutely love and
when we’re walking through the
curriculum here at peaks we’re walking
through really good stuff really good
subject matter that affords people the
opportunity um to take a trip
from the north down south kind of into
the nervous system and make that million
mile march from head to heart and i
think our curriculum does that in a very
special way
through things like identity and purpose
grief and loss personal history
relationships
emotional emotional emotion emotional
identification and awareness substance
use and mental health substance use and
mental health and i love that and
something i like to point out too is
like in this curriculum
where we’re treating a lot of people who
cope with substances
it’s very interesting to me that in our
curriculum we barely touch on substance
use disorder
why is that jason
well it’s because
at peaks we look at substance use as
part of any other mental health issue
and
really it kind of um it’s an old thought
process i think to think that
co-occurring issues are substance use
over here mental health over here and
really
there’s a tremendous amount of overlap
in fact so much overlap it doesn’t even
really make a ton of sense
to create a huge distinction between the
two
and
you know i think about it in this way
too that like um
back when i was in private practice
people would ask me if i did anger
management and i’m like
well yeah because like it it comes from
wounded places and like
do i sit down with a curriculum and go
over it no but like
so all these mental health issues
whether it’s substance use or depression
anxiety
um whatever it may be our curriculum
works with it really well um
in that space of a tremendous amount of
overlap between all of those issues yeah
yeah that’s a beautiful like bridge that
we can create and morgan what have you
seen on your side of things at the
client level through kind of shifting
the verbiage that we use instead of
addiction and you know have you gotten
sober what is your substance use what’s
your drug of choice this is some of the
old verbiage that we used to use and i
think consequently a lot of the field
still uses but what have you seen
really at the client level in the work
that you the special work that you get
to do each and every day have you seen a
shift
and maybe it has to do with shame maybe
it has to do with insight yeah yeah i
think that i’ve not ever worked with a
client that
um
is just dealing with substance use
problems i think that
that’s more of like the symptom that a
lot of other treatment centers treat um
or try to address but really they’re not
getting at the root cause
it’s kind of my theory that not anybody
uses substances because it’s fun for
long right like it’s a miserable life
but there’s something that continues to
drive that and so getting underneath it
whether it be the anxiety or depression
or other mental health concerns
i think that
normalizing that within our curriculum
and having the language around it has
really allowed people to be more honest
with themselves and kind of get to that
root issue rather than just treating the
symptom yeah so yeah i really like that
too because it’s not i’m just not an
addict like it’s much more that and when
you can approach it from the whole
person and from a mental health
perspective then we can when we focus in
on mental health i believe it takes care
of things like anger and some of those
rooted really rooted issues
um as you walk through the curriculum
with our clients
um really over the last year and a half
or two years since we’ve had the
curriculum this curriculum in place
what are some of your more
um
kind of favorite
weeks to teach or plan for yeah uh
good question
i love grief and loss
i
uh
it’s like a running joke i think um with
clients going through that week of
curriculum that like us counselors
really are like out to make them cry or
like or kind of these um we collect
their tears and our coffee cups or
something like that um
and it’s not like it’s not that like
we’re not just
get trying to make people cry but there
is a lot of i think progress made in
that week
and for me like grief and loss is a
reason that i am a counselor and so like
that personal attachment getting to see
people like work through
what i think we’ve all struggled with at
some point or another um is really
powerful so yeah it’s a it’s a really
really powerful week getting to kind of
walk alongside people
feeling anger and denial and depression
and kind of walking through the stages
with them so
that’s a great point what do you get
what do you see
as a result of not dealing with one’s
grief what are some barriers that come
up when you see someone entrenched in
their grief or an inability to have a
thorough
um grieving process
yeah i mean i think that grief is often
stunted right and i think that even in
the dsm in the past it’s not really been
like fully acknowledged as this like big
problem
um and i think actually now they’re
making edits to the dsm which is like
the diagnostic
manual basically for clinicians to kind
of diagnose people
with different mental health concerns
they’re actually finding that like
complicated grief is a thing and it can
last longer than it’s supposed to
and i think
i mean there’s a lot of different things
that you can be grieving it’s not just
the loss of a person that was important
to you or this
you know some thing that i think is
often related to grief and loss but it’s
something like maybe you’re grieving
your childhood
because of trauma maybe you’re grieving
um
the loss of life that you had because of
this addiction maybe you know like
there’s different parts of it and so i
think not addressing those parts
is what we’re talking about like that’s
what keeps you in kind of the symptoms
of addiction like the substance use so
yeah that makes a lot of sense thank you
for shedding light on that and what
would you guys this is what i was taught
in the field what would you say to this
grief unlike trauma with time heals over
time
but i think that’s an interesting
statement i certainly
don’t think that
trauma does not resolve with time i mean
it
it does take some time but it doesn’t
time alone won’t heal that
um
i i don’t think i don’t think grief is
all that dissimilar i don’t think it’s
quite as intense maybe
to kind of walk through grief but
um you know as morgan was talking a
minute ago like i did think of
well what i tell our clients too like um
i got to sit in on grief week a couple
weeks ago
and and offer a little lecture and i did
talk about how
if we don’t learn how to grieve it does
create this log jam and oftentimes
i’m sure morgan can tell 100 stories
about this but oftentimes
when we walk clients through a grief
process they’re like wait i have all
these other grief letters i want to
write like i want to keep this going
because i’m feeling all this relief and
now i have this new process a new
channel with which i can work through
some of these losses that i’ve
experienced and so
um
i i think that’s how we
kind of relate it to kind of long-term
recovery from mental health and
substance use is to say
you know we’re giving you the process
of how to grieve
and you know in in grieving most
grieving models say that denial is a
part of that process like some after
some initial shock and
you know bargaining like you know i just
want this person back or whatever it may
be or i want this relationship back
whatever the case may be it’s like there
is
part of it that is a denial process uh
according to most models but
um
unless you kind of know or kind of have
access to
that channel if you will like it it
actually is a very difficult thing to
just let time
go away because and you can tell then if
you bring up something from well in the
past and it still creates all this pain
or um
anger or an avoidance of that topic that
follows very similar to trauma yeah do
you agree with that absolutely yeah yeah
and i had thought too you know i used to
be told
in back when i went those are 2008
but they’re like grief unlike trauma
with time it’ll heal but i had much a
dissimilar experience when i was at the
meadows processing my grief
it almost came from a hunt like my whole
life yeah it was like
yeah and it came out and grandpa we’re
talking
if that is true over it right and it
just wasn’t that way
um so i really like what you said there
and really offering people the authentic
opportunity to learn that process for
themselves and really actualize that
in the outpatient setting in their world
in their family systems in their
communities can really be an authentic
way to not get that log jam to not have
kind of some of that stuff build up
and exacerbate some of those symptoms so
thank you for that um another question i
wanted to ask is as we’re going through
the curriculum
what are some of
the barriers
let’s talk about mature adults
as you get mature adults professionals
which we often get in programming what
are some of the barriers
to those folks having an authentic
process within our curriculum or
specifically maybe even grief week
i mean i think it comes back to denial a
lot of the times
i mean it’s just
i mean mature adults right like
they have routines
they have
uh ways that they like things and in
ways that have worked for them right
like if you’re
a 45 year old male
and you’re just now starting to see a
problem with your substance use right
like you have
a long time working for you
it’s not working anymore but i think
that breaking those patterns is hard
and i think that the beauty of our kind
of program and curriculum
um it provides that opportunity to do so
with other mature people but also like
i think the intergenerational kind of
component of like
you know
older guys with younger guys or older
women with younger women like getting to
see each other like step into that
vulnerability which is generally a new
space for mature adults yeah um
i think that it’s a really cool
component of that yes so what you’re
actually saying in that is like mixed
ages in our milieu with six weeks much
different than gender specification
which we all know to be hook line and
sink are the way to go you’re saying
that this mixed ages really offers an
opportunity because we are to your point
coming off the back of a very physical
generation and opening up to a very
emotionally heightened and aware
generation so that 20 year old may go
into session and just empty the tank and
that mature adult goes whoa if he can do
that maybe i can yeah wow that’s cool
yeah i really like that
and it makes sense too because those
adaptive behaviors
right there’s i don’t think there’s
anything wrong with having a glass of
wine at night i really don’t and for the
into treatment for the first time i have
to imagine that that’s been an adaptive
behavior for a number of years and then
it was two and then three and so trying
to get back to somewhere you’ve been it
almost appears like the young adult
really never had that
and so
there’s not that same kind of barrier
there yeah
let me ask you
with a grief week or
a week in the curriculum what are some
of the barriers
for young people having an authentic
process within the curriculum
i think that’s hard i mean
we have so many young people come
through our program um
and so many of them find success and i
think that i mean culture is not really
on our side right it’s not on the the
side of abstinence or even um like
responsible use
um just i mean if you’re still if you’re
coming in as an 18 year old or even a 21
year old right like still in college
like there’s a lot of things
that
present as obstacles in your way of
recovery and so i think just
i don’t want to say not being done but
but like the willingness to kind of give
up normal as society sees it i think is
a huge barrier for our young people um
but i think
i mean it’s a hard one to overcome
frankly right like when it’s so
normalized within within culture so yeah
i really like that what do you think are
some of the
barriers for young people for the young
people with our curriculum specifically
oh with the curriculum okay
um
i mean there are some
people yeah i mean we i don’t mean to
keep going back to grief and loss but
there certainly are 18 or 19 year olds
that are like i’ve really lost anything
like my parents are a lot my
grandparents are alive my
you know i’ve had some flings with a
girlfriend or a boyfriend but hasn’t
really ever just lost a lot right um
and it takes really kind of crafty uh
clinicians to weave in there and find
um elements of loss whatever that might
be whether it’s
hopes and dreams or like you know
connections with other people or
i i
we’ve
i don’t know hundreds of people have
gone through our grief week and and i
think we’re at 100 we found something
for people to work on grieving about i
think we’ve we figured it out every time
but but sometimes just that that insight
and that introspection and then
um
i would also say particularly with
substance use uh
substance use
young people with substance use
uh the good parts are still really kind
of proximate
they’re only a year or two ago things
were mostly pretty fun yeah if you’re
talking to a 45 year old guy the the
party time is well passed if you ask me
um
and then like with with people with
mental health young adults with mental
health
um it’s fascinating the amount of denial
that comes with that like just the lack
of acceptance of like this couldn’t
happen to me or this isn’t it or
i think it’s another thing that’s
causing my mind to race or whatever it
might be like it’s difficult
um
with maybe i think young adults to
externalize a lot of what’s happening to
them like blame a lot of other things on
the outside yeah yeah yeah i like your
example with the grief and loss
especially like for younger people we
were just processing this
i think last week or the week before but
a younger
one of our clients kind of figuring out
to grieve like the expectations and
hopes that he had for his life right
like as a 20 year old
dealing with pretty significant mental
health concerns
like figuring out
well like what i wanted to do is not
going to happen
right and so and that’s heavy
right and like
at the beginning of the week i haven’t
lost anybody like you said i haven’t
i haven’t moved i haven’t done any of
the stuff that you all are talking about
and and really we’re talking about much
deeper things
so yeah i think that’s i think that’s
great and the barrier for young people
the reason i ask is because you know i
was a young adult getting sober and i
was at cottonwood day tucson and i had a
phenomenal therapist i never once cried
there
and i think something that you all do
brilliantly
and the peaks team collectively does it
really really well is it’s dawned on me
through the work that you all do with
our clients and the safety you create
you make it really safe
i don’t know in any of my treatment
stays all three of them if i ever got
safe
and so when you ask me what’s going on
i’m like hey i’m here man you know we’re
gonna get through this but we’re not
talking about that yeah because we’re
just not going there and i’m right here
i’m all in here and so a huge barrier
sometimes is is can be lack of safety
but also young adults who have really
ripped and roared and the only reason
they’re alive that day is because of
themselves
nobody supported that and it can become
a really big barrier when you’re trying
to do that work when you don’t implement
safety i would imagine if i were to tuck
in my 22 year old self into peaks man
you guys would have a field day
um
because you create that safety yeah yeah
yeah so i just i really love the
opportunity you’re affording not only
mature adults but creating safety for
young adults that potentially have never
had safety in their life ever
and you can see people really come alive
on that peaks campus when they get that
safety they’re like
just tell me whatever you want to tell
me and i’ll listen
so and it’s because of people like you
guys i mean really just creating
that culture and really creating that
energy that is sufficient for safety is
just really really cool to watch
um so
so morgan unfortunately
um one of our badass clinicians and i
thought i was telling morgan before the
show was like
all of our clinicians are really good
and it really really sucks to lose any
of them
but morgan is a military family and
they’re going to be moving to kentucky
and so we’re going to be losing her in
the next two and a half weeks which we
are very sad about morgan is an awesome
clinician she has literally grown up
right in front of our eyes and
is an even better human and we all know
that and i think that’s probably what
we’ll miss most but i wanted to just
check in with you and
we talked about before the show some
things that you’ll miss and some things
you’re weary of entering into the field
outside of peaks because it is a little
bit different but i just wanted to check
in and talk about like what’s like your
favorite thing about pigs and your
experience here
easy answer um and i think you know even
going back to this previous conversation
that we’ve been having like creating
safety for our clients i think that
starts within
like the clinical culture
and i think that over the past couple
years we’ve really established as a
clinical team
that safety
and that kind of integrity within
ourselves
the team i mean thanks to you thanks to
i think a lot of people but
um it i’m
i think i’m most weary of leaving peaks
because of that
because i’m afraid that i’m not going to
find that somewhere else
i mean it’s the best clinical team and
i’m
biased obviously i’ve honestly never
worked on another clinical team
but like it’s the best clinical team in
the in the nation um
and i think that
i mean there’s a lot of evidence that
support this that supports that um but
like i think the teamwork the the
support that we give each other uh even
when
days are hard or
things are a little wonky and aren’t
going as planned like people stepping up
for each other in the way that they do
like that is a it’s a beautiful thing so
yeah wow that’s that’s really special
safety within a team
wow
jason how’s that for you as the clinical
chief clinical officer and i know just
even year and a half ago two years ago
maybe nobody would have said that yeah i
i
um
well we were also talking before the
show about our clinical meeting that we
had yesterday we
i think what we have as a company and
then i want to say particularly as a
team is we have integrity well if we’re
asking clients to do it we’re doing it
too
and you know it’s interesting i don’t
know if it’s a coincidence or what that
we’re talking about grief and loss well
we’ve started grieving our loss of
morgan and she started grieving her loss
of leaving peaks
and we’re sitting in our clinical
meeting with all the clinicians
on a residential team
and uh
it’s
there’s a lot of tissues and a lot of
sniffling and yeah um
because this is sad and in in
because
um we love morgan i love morgan it’s
gonna be hard to watch her go um
[Music]
and
and i know that if we all in that room
just stuff it down and act like this
isn’t happening we’re of no service to
the people coming into our program
and um and i can’t ask
our clinicians to hold space if we can’t
if i can’t hold space for them and they
can’t hold space for each other either
um and i think that’s
to me the magic sauce of this whole
thing is that
um
we’re just we’re no better than our
clients we’re
in this life thing it’s hard it’s
difficult and we lose things sometimes
that we
uh find to be precious and it’s gonna
suck to have morgan leave
um
but we all get to kind of walk through
our process and we’ve even joked like oh
we’re in denial right now well
we broke close to that last week
but all that to say like i just really
think um
i i think there’s an integrity between
our curriculum and our team that
that we’re we we aren’t um doing things
that are out of alignment with how
we approach each other
and and i’ve heard it so many times
clinicians coming to me and being like
the clients are saying that you guys
seem to really like each other
this team really seems to care about
each other and like um
unequivocally we do and that is not an
act you can’t make that up yeah and i
and i can remember you know in other
jobs and and certainly earlier in my
career i can remember
offering advice that i wish i could take
or offering solution that i hadn’t
realized myself you know what i mean and
um
so to have a team where we can
just do that and and
wrestle with these things i think it’s i
mean it’s the biggest privilege of my
life to be honest with you so
that’s really cool and and thank you
both for coming on it’s just it’s it’s
really
it’s sad to see you go um and i will
miss you know because i get to sit down
and with clients and have a smoothie and
i’ll miss you know hey i sat with morgan
the other day and we did this and how
where did you find morgan you know
morgan’s phenomenal i’ve never had a
therapist like morgan i will miss
hearing that on our campus i’ll miss
seeing that bright light that you are
but like i said before the show i think
i think maybe your mission’s a little
bigger
and i think and i’m hopeful that you’ll
see it at the next turn
but
when you’re talking about leading and
you’re talking about leading with
integrity it’s really up my alley and
there’s two people sitting in front of
me right now that do that exceptionally
well
and that is something that if i was in
treatment i would follow and i always
put myself in that client’s chair and i
look would i follow
and i would fall that the answer today
is a resounding yes
so thank you both for the work that you
do for vulnerable people and with each
other
that’s special
um so thank you so much yeah thanks
chris and that is going to be it today
for fine and peaks what a great episode
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